The Isolation Trap of Pursuing Emotional Health | Ep: #33

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Emotional health is a gift, but can be a curse.

This week’s Three Minute Thought we talk about how pursuing emotional health can have the best of intentions but accidentally lead to a deep sense of loneliness, which is counterproductive for pursuing a better internal world. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Don’t be enticed by only the allure of emotional health. Instead, approach your process with intentionality that leads to becoming a well-rounded man. 

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Intro: Men. We are not simple chest-thumping, rock-smashing, fire-starting barbarians. We have depth. We intensely feel. We are scared, yet brave. We love to have fun. We’re imperfect, and make mistakes. We’re compassionate, and loving. We are multifaceted. Let’s explore the reality of masculinity together.

When I started multifaceted masculinity, I wanted it to be multifaceted in the sense of broader than just our perception, our current perception of what masculinity encompasses and today’s topic is that is broad.

It is outside of a lot of people’s comfort zone or norm. And that is we’re talking about the clinical, emotional and spiritual side of psychedelics. We’re not talking about the recreational side, you know, those that use psychedelics to kind of escape or run away from their life. We’re talking about a specific to how does it, or can it impact in a positive way, your personal growth, your self development, your relationship with God.

Can that fit in as part of your process? Now I would encourage you to not get offended and let offense get in the way of either education or potentially even becoming liberated in certain ways. If you’ve been curious about this topic, but maybe too afraid to lean into it or explore it, just leave a fence at the door and listen to the entire conversation before you pass judgment or react in any way.

And I would really encourage you kind of take it the way that I take a lot of topics nowadays, which is to be curious, instead of offended, to be curious, instead of coming to snap judgment or reactions that are really just default hardwired responses that you’ve grown accustomed to. And lastly, a little word of caution, as well as a disclaimer, the disclaimer is I am personally at a place of asking a lot of questions and I mean, a lot of them that is broader than today’s topic, but it includes today’s topic.

And so I approached this conversation really with what I recommended you do, which is with curiosity and. From that place of curiosity, we had the conversation we had and more than likely we’re going to have more of them. Now, the word of caution is some of the things that we talked about or were said they were more of a generalization than maybe a hard rule or a fact.

And neither one of us are doctors. Neither one of us are researchers that have dedicated our lives to. Psychedelics. And so it’s up to you to take personal responsibility and do your own research. If this is something that is sparked curiosity in you, don’t just take what you heard in this podcast, as fact, or as truth, dig into it, begin to research it for yourself, find out what is true or isn’t true and become even more curious, let that passion kind of.

Grow as you lean into the research side of things before you try diving into anything, or hopefully you are wise enough to not take any one man’s word as an ultimate truth or gospel. So that’s what I would just ask you to do is listen to it all the way through with curiosity. And if that curiosity grows by the end of the conversation, then dive into research and let your curiosity take you.

To a deeper understanding in place when it comes to psychedelics. Now, we’re going to be talking about this in further episodes. So make sure that you subscribe. And if you found any of these episodes beneficial, I ask that you leave a review. I am so encouraged by them. And quite frankly, they help the algorithms when it comes to bumping my podcasts exposure.

And ultimately what that does is helps the conversation around masculinity grow, which is my heart. All right, let’s go ahead and dive into psychedelics. And Christianity

So today is what I would consider a special day. I think if you’ve listened to any of my episodes that have guests, I’ve told you from the beginning that I want to bring in people that. I have relationship with, I have history with that I really admire or respect or look up to for a variety of reasons.

And specifically in the vein of just becoming a man, whatever that looks like for us specifically or individually, and today who’s guests is fits that criteria. Yeah, we go back probably about seven or eight years. And there was a gap where we didn’t talk too much, not because of anything, relationally, but just life and you know how that goes.

Uh, but now what has brought us back together is a topic that I feel is really important, to be honest, with, to be clear with and really to take the mystery out of. And that is the realm of psychedelics. Now, my only word of caution is. Before you skip on or go to the next episode that you just lay aside any preconceived notion of what you think psychedelics are as well as if you feel offended right now, or feel an aversion to it.

I ask you to just stick around for the next 10 or 15 minutes. If after that, you still feel the same way then great. Move on. Not everything is for everyone. But I did want to at least challenge you and encourage you. You did not just respond in your reaction, but without further ado, um, that honor, that is one of my friends and he is now part of the multifaceted masculinity community.

How’s it going?

Hey man, how you doing? It’s good.

Yeah, absolutely. I think. I think it’s important for the listeners specifically because of the topic and how touchy it can be to at least start with a little bit of a foundation for who you are and why are, why are you, why are you and I specifically talking about this topic, like, how did you arrive to where you are?

Not that you have arrived in life, but how did you arrive to the point where we’re having this conversation?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, um, knowing your, your listener base. Uh, it’s probably a lot of folks that I could sit down with and have a cup of coffee with and get along with really well. I grew up in the Baptist church.

Right. Which, you know, could have its own interpretation of what that looks like, but absolutely after, but I kind of rebelled against that at an early age in high school, joined the Marine Corps. Uh, I think you and I are. Serving together at the same time. Uh, obviously didn’t know each other at the time.

And then towards the end, I went to, went to Iraq to polluted Japan. And then once I was getting out, I started to find my faith again, like before that it was always just a struggle. It was kind of like my parents’ faith. Wasn’t really mine. I started to take ownership of it kind of led me more into the charismatic route and, and that was freedom for me.

And so I was like, wow, this is a breath of fresh air. And, and you know, these charismatic things or supernatural things are, are just refreshing. And so that had its own journey eventually, uh, found myself at a church in Northern California, which is where you and I eventually met. Yeah. But you know, it was this constant, like struggle.

This process of I’m just not getting. The breakthroughs in my life that I’ve been asking for, I’ve been seeking for now every, every, you know, I guess every challenge or every seeking opportunity has its own stepping stone. And so it has brought me to the place that I’m at now, which I’m thankful for, but it comes with its own frustration.

Right? You can have the frustration of just sitting in the, the, the same place. And not moving very much for the rest of your life, or you have the frustration of growth and, you know, continually moving forward and higher. And so, um,

actually I want to pause you right there. I think that’s a great point is you’re saying the frustration of one of the two, um, for a lot of people, I think a lot of, especially as guys, we’re not okay with tension and we’re not okay with sitting in that tension or letting that tension be something that moves us forward.

And oftentimes makes us feel trapped. So can you just really quickly expound on how you were able to make that switch from it being kind of a frustration to being a catalyst for you?

man, that’s, that’s a, that’s a great question. Cause I’m trying to remember exactly where the switch was. Um, I guess it came from the fact that I’m in this community of people I’m going to church.

And I see people encountering God in this magical way, this mystical way. I read so much literature about the mystics from the past. Um, you know, people moving in supernatural gifts and, and, um, And I’m like, why am I not experiencing that? Is there something wrong with me? So then you, you start the shame cycle, right?

Not as favored, um, you know, I’m broken, you know, that, that crap, that is not true. And, um, you kind of get to a point where you just kind of throw your hands up and say, listen, I trust you, God. Jesus, Holy spirit. I trust you when you say that you’re not going to ever let me go. Like you’re not threatened by who I want to be, or the messes that I make or the things that I want to accomplish.

You’re not threatened if I step away for a season, whatever. And there comes so much freedom to just trust that you’re never going to be let go, but you can go and explore. And that means like, Hey, I got to push into things that are. Kind of crack open my mind. I think, um, you know, I think I heard someone say a while back that you CA you have to allow yourself to be offended.

You have to allow your mind to be offended so that it can kind of break open that box either whether it’s a God box or a self box or a church box break, that thing open so that you can push into the greater and push into the more. And so, um, Yeah, man. I just, I hate seeing people get locked into that.

You know, the should game. I should be doing this more. I should be reading the Bible more praying more, this, that, and the other thing more. And, um, all those rules and regulations that we impose on ourselves are just there to drag us down and allow us to shame ourselves over and over again. So, yeah, it’s ugly.

Yeah. So how did you, and I couldn’t agree more a more, I think we were just talking last week about. The sheds, which could probably be a podcast in and of itself, but in the vein of what we’re talking about today, how, where did psychedelics, or just kind of that, that topic, uh, show up in your process and where kind of, where are you right now in that vein?

Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. So, um, so when I started seeing those things, Around me and the church community and just feeling like there’s gotta be more, why am I not experiencing more? Um, I began to just kind of push into, you know, different things, different philosophies. I never really got into the Eastern philosophies necessarily, but just like would observe them from a distance.

And, um, it was always about, you know, How can I, I always about keeping the edge, especially when it comes to business or just my personal development. So what are you when you get into like, say biohacking with, uh, with fasting or intermittent fasting or, you know, ice bags or, you know, whatever it might be.

It was always something to take me just a little bit further in my journey. Okay. So about two years ago, I started to allow myself into certain things. But while always kind of looking back back at, you know, Jesus, he was my archetype at the time, looking back at Jesus and going, Hey, is this okay? Can I do this?

You know? And he is a, he is a God of red lights, not Greenlight. So he’s, he’s going to have a constant green light. Until he gives me the red light. And so I always had green lights from him. And so it moved into yoga, which has been more accepted by the church in the last, you know, 10, 20 years, um, meditation, as opposed to praying, which makes sense, because praying is just one way monologue, for the most part, meditation is more of a receiving, which is what I wanted, but, um, but it began to push me to more mystical, cool things, which is where I kind of landed with.

Uh, psychedelics. So the brief 32nd history of that is I grew up in a law enforcement household. Okay. At fifth and sixth grade, I was like, number one, dare participant. Like I got the gold medal for the best dare poster, you know, to keep kids off drugs thing. And now that didn’t. In my rebellious years in high school, that wasn’t always the case, but you know, that’s the household I grew up in.

And so there was a certain programming there that, yeah, all these things are bad for you. So I was talking to a friend, reconnected with a friend from high school about a few years ago. We’d lost touch with each other for awhile. And we started talking and he had started to mention these experiences that he had with LSD.

Okay. And I was like, Whoa, Whoa, dude. Like that’s, that’s heavy, man. What are you talking about? You know, and instead of being turned off and separating myself from him, I was just a little, I just let him talk and I would just open up to the idea. Now it wasn’t something for me at the time, but I listened. I, I didn’t judge.

Um, I was open to hearing what he had to say and. That was the beginning of me considering something considering reprogramming what I’ve always thought to be the case about psychedelics. Okay. So that’s kind of the beginning of where I’m at now. Got it.

Okay. So I think specifically within what you said, it’s important to clarify.

Cause I know that we’ve had these conversations off air, but. Generally speaking, I think you hit the nail on the head in a sense of being in the traditional Baptist air superhero child with a poster. You know, the epitome of the messaging of just drugs in general are really negative and bad, but psychedelics, I mean, that’s where, you know, people lose it or, or whatever it may be.

That’s, that’s the extremes. Right. Right. And so I think it’s important to clarify for the rest of our conversation. Just generally speaking when you’re saying or what I’m saying, when we’re saying psychedelics, what exactly are we referring to? Are, are you referring to beyond, I mean, you mentioned your friend with LSD, but it’s psychedelics are so much broader than just our stereotype of what they are.

So what exactly is a psychedelic to, to just make it really simple?

Yeah to make it really simple. Psychedelic is a, we’ll just say, we’ll call it a compound that you ingest somehow you get it into your body. That will cause the participant to occasion a mystical experience. So that might be. Um, you know, mood change, it could be perceptual change.

You know, you hear about the hippie movement in the sixties and it’s all kind of, you know, um, stereotypical, grateful, dead, you know, um, kaleidoscope images and things like that, which, which happened there, they came from something. And so, um, that as well as in intense feelings of love, Tapping into this universal element of love, like you’ve never have



So, and that is, that’s a psychedelic basically. Yeah.

How are those different than whatever it may be? Meth, cocaine, alcohol, nicotine, like there’s the word drugs. It covers so many things. Some are illegal. There’s quite a few things that are legal that are horrible for you as well. But what, what kind of differentiates a, not in a sense of escaping or checking out or running from, but in the vein of a better understanding of yourself or of God or others, um, using psychedelics, how is that different than the other things that we would kind of categorize as a drug

man, get you’re on a soap box with that question.

So what we’re here for. Yeah. I think that’s a really good place for people to start too, because you have to begin to start removing the stigmas that you have with these kinds of things, to be able to open yourself up to it. Um, my first eye-opener was when I realized that psychedelics should not be on the controlled substances, um, Act, which they were lumped in there with all of the main drugs back in the sixties.

It was, it was a movement by Nixon. And, um, to remove, just to kind of put it in there because you have this hippie movement of. Kids that are all about making love, not war. And that’s not just like having sex. It’s making, it’s having this love for humanity as opposed to making war. And he’s thinking I can not have a generation, right.

Of individuals who won’t go to war. Like I need a military. We need that military industrial complex to be able to go fight Wars. And if all these kids are loving each other. So because it did have an altered state of consciousness, It was easy for them to put that on the controlled substance act. Now, does it belong there?

Absolutely. Not just like marijuana absolutely. Should not be on it. Um, the reason is good.

I was just going to, I think you’re just about to answer it, which is why not? You’re saying that it’s not, but why not? Yeah,

probably the one greatest indicator is that it’s not addictive. The substances are non there’s, nothing about the chemical or the compound that is addictive.

Now people could argue and say they are addictive. What they’re, what they’re referring to is the experience. People can become addicted to the experience, but then themselves, your body does not become addicted to the compound like you do with cocaine, heroin, opiates, barbiturates, even alcohol. And so, I mean, you think about it.

I mean, Statistically alcohol should be on that controlled substances act.

Why? Because there is

astronomical death and disease, both by the person that’s, you know, ingesting it, then killing themselves, but also drinking and driving kills people. Um, it’s a weapon. As well as just a disease that alcohol causes.

So I don’t understand how that can be on the controlled substance act, but the psychedelics, which if taken the right way, which we should get into yeah. Can occasion they, it can heal trauma. It can, um, it is always about bringing the user, the participant back into a place of self love, which if everybody.

Took the initiative to love themselves more. We’d have a lot less problems in this world. Um, so, so it’s not addictive. It is most of the, most of the compounds come from the earth, you know, there’s LSD, which is synthetic, uh, which was one of the very first psychedelics to be explored and tested by the Western society.

But you’ve got plant medicine like. Uh, mushrooms, uh silicide and mushrooms and, uh, Wasco and payoti and a BOGO down in Africa, which have been around for thousands, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of years that have been used to heal people’s whole body, mind, body, spirit. Um, and so, you know, we’ve lost a lot of that, but that is.

I hope that answered the question. Did that answer the question?

Yeah, no, it did. Um, I think before we go on just let’s what do you mean by taking them responsibility or responsibility? Yeah,

this is, this is what I preach all the time, because now we’re talking about folks that take any drug, the psychedelics in a recreational way.

So, and the other thing is, and I’ll just get back to really quickly what separates psychedelics from the other drugs, the other drugs. Beat up your body. Okay. They did they kill parts of your body? Um, you know, cocaine is a lot of times cut with other substances and obviously heroin we know is just all these really dirty drugs that hurt the body.

All right. Not only that people take them to run away. To avoid, to escape their problems. Okay. That is the reason alcohol, same thing. People take these substances to run away into avoid yeah. Problems. Whereas with psychedelics, it is impossible to avoid your, the issues. The whole goal of the psychedelic is to bring you face to face with your issues.

Remove the fight or flight mechanism I’ll tend to have with our issues. That’s what keeps us running from them. And allow us to observe those issues, those problems, whether it’s addiction, relationship problems, you know, problems with money, whatever it might be, spiritual problems, you know, how do I not encounter God better?

It allows us to strip away the ego and that fight or flight that keeps us from looking at our problems and observe the problem and have answers for it. To come out of the experience going, I know how to handle this problem. I know how to stop avoiding it. I know how to get healed. I know how to move past the trauma.

That’s keeping me from in these cycles, you know, behavioral cycles in relationships with work, whatever it might be so

real quick, are there, um, I think that’s the positive side of it. Maybe just to push back or to hear a little bit of the other side of it. Cause you said that it’s. Um, not bad for the body or the other ones are bad for the body.

Right. Um, what about one of the most common, uh, reactions to psychedelics, which is the bad trip? Yeah, they took it, they lost their mind. They’re never the same. They opened themselves up to demons. They like that whole realm of the bad side. I understand that the psychedelic can have the intention of moving people closer to what you described.

But what about the other side of it?

Yeah. So good. So, um, the bad trip is what scared people straight, right? It is what gave the dare program. It’s what gave Nixon the leverage that he needed to enact the controlled substance I can put psychedelics on it. It is fear. It’s fear driven, right? The bad trip people have a bad trip.

And the notorious story is that they. Uh, or narrative back in the sixties was they had a bad trip and they jumped out a window. Right. And they killed themselves. Um, the bad trip really comes down to how responsible people are with taking the substances. So do you drink alcohol and then go drive? No, not good.

Right. Um, you. The goal behind psychedelics is to be in a safe place to address your issue. So set and setting is what you will hear preached and should be preached with any conversation in psychedelics ever set an setting. So what that’s referring to is mindset. Okay. That’s the set mindset. And then the setting, the place that you’re actually having the experience is the environment conducive to that.

Are you going to have interruptions? Are people going to be coming in or do you have pets that might interrupt? You know, are you expecting a phone call, things like that. You want your environment to be conducive to. Six hours of just you being with you or another person, um, and not having any interruptions, the bad trip comes with the mindset too.

That’s why you’ve got people at tech take recreational drugs, or take, take the psychedelics recreationally and they might have a bad trip is because they’re just kind of just trying to get high. Right. They’re just trying to have an experience they’re trying to disassociate from this reality for a moment.

But they’re not in the right mindset. And so they have a bad trip. So where I come from is everything. Every second duck should be taken in a ceremoniously ceremony, ceremonious way, whether you’re by yourself. Or whether you go on a Iowasca retreat or a mushroom retreat or payoti retreat, you know, you think about the native Americans, they had the, the, you know, they do the payoti and the sweat lodge is, and everything was ceremonious.

Okay. Are our ancestors always did things ceremoniously and they did that because. They believe that there is spirit that lives in each one of these substances and you disrespect, or you dishonor the spirits when you take them. Inappropriately, we just take them flippantly. You’re just trying to avoid as opposed to taking them, to heal you, to, um, you know, to strengthen you, to move past trauma.

Um, you’re essentially looking at the substance and saying, I need your help. Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping me. And it responds in that same manner where it says I will help you. Here you go. And when that’s in place, There’s usually never, ever a bad trip. People will have challenges. Don’t get me wrong.

It’s work. It’s it’s work. You’re going into it. Not to get high and to disassociate, you’re going in to do some deep work, to find that healing where some people occasioned it to, Hey, in six hours I got 20 years worth therapy.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. There’s a reason for that.

So that’s the ceremony and kind of the allocated time.

And I think that those are all really valid and good points. Not to go on a complete rabbit trailer tangent, but what about microdosing in the sense of incorporating for some people? This is what I’ve heard is that they incorporate small amounts just as a means of managing depression or managing anxiety or whatever it may be.

Um, it’s, you know, the, I guess the question is what’s the differentiation between. That and what you’ve said in the sense of the setting being really important, not having the phone call versus the microdosing approach to things. Not that it has to be one or the other, but incorporating the microdosing side of things where they are, are kind of doing life in a sense, not necessarily even higher feeling it, but just using psychedelics as a means to improve their overall wellbeing.


Yeah. That’s a great question. And I’m going to try to take my energy down a little bit, cause you got me all excited talking about those things. I’m like, all right, Seth, gauge it a little bit. All right. Um, so I personally, um, I microdose. And microdosing started off well, became popular in Silicon Valley by all of your computer programmers, um, people that were very much into tech and art and innovation.

And, um, you know, you hear about, uh, Steve jobs who, uh, dropped LSD a handful of times and, and came into this great revelation, which is essentially where Apple came from. Um, LSD. And I’ll just I’ll circle back around here. You know, LSD was something that Albert Hoffman stumbled upon. Um, I believe he was in Switzerland, stumbled upon in like the forties.

I believe he was trying to create a compound for high blood pressure. I believe stumbled across this compound that he had created, came contact with it and had this crazy trip and he didn’t know what was happening. He thought he was dying. He jumped on his bicycle. Drove home, rode home, laid there on his bed and had this experience that he had no grid for.

And so he, uh, he, he likened it to dying and being born again. Okay. Going into the dark night of the soul dying and being born again, which is interesting. Cause it has some parallels to scripture, but, um, what he, the, the long story made short is that in these studies, the whole goal was that they thought it would.

Be useful in psychiatric treatment to treat people with mental illness. Okay. So for, for a couple of decades, they were doing all this research. They’re giving LSD away to all of these therapists who promise that they could, you know, if they administered it to their patients and kept really good records, they could have this compound for free.

Oh, right

now, during that time, and we also get into like the CIA who got ahold of it. Yeah. I started using it for MK ultra and, you know, mind control and things like that. Which if you don’t know, I think about that. You should look that up, but it began to be used. In the wrong way, on a very sinister kind of way.

And then when the Hacksaw came down to, to eliminate the use of psychedelics, all that research had to go out the window, but, and that was in the sixties and into about 73, but it was in the seventies when you had these Renaissance people, these pioneers, who said, I just made new the, the beauty of it.

They knew the benefits of it. And they said, We’ve got to continue our research. We’ve got to continue to explore this LSD thing and what it can mean to the world. And so instead of administering it to people like Guinea pigs, they would take it themselves and share it with other people. And they would come up, you know, they would create the set and the setting.

Um, but what they found was that, you know, eventually Silicon Valley began to use it in kind of like a. Do you know, they had like days like a microdosing Friday or something like that to where on Fridays they would all microdose or, or take some sort of trip, um, and evoke some creativity. Another big part is that there’s creativity that just explodes out of this place where people I might’ve been stuck previously.

So that’s where the micro dose kind of originated. And this had a lot of reasons since then, but the goal is not to be tripping, right? The small amount that gets. All the synapses and the neurons in your brain firing in incredible ways. You can’t normally. And so it allows for creativity allows her problem solving.

It allows for you to step outside rethink stuff, but you’re not experiencing this. Hi, you’re not experiencing the effects where you can’t function. So that’s why Silicon Valley is using it. I mean, that’s why you’ve got so much innovation in tech analogy nowadays is because they are all. Encouraged to microdose.

And so it’s for some people and not for others, but there’s a difference between microdosing in that way. And then actually having these really intense, amazing trips that might last six plus hours where you’re doing some deep work inside yourself and with your, with angels or spirit guides or whatever you subscribe to that’s, that’s what you’re encountering.

So got it. So, so maybe. A way of saying it is that a lot of times microdosing is used as a means of, uh, enhancing your life in one form or another, whether that’s creativity or the different veins that it affects versus. Um, and, and I would see that, I mean, I don’t, or haven’t microdose, so I’m flying blind on this, but.

Um, see it as, as almost like a multivitamin or a daily vitamin or a periodic, you know, something that you do to alter your state. I mean, some could even argue caffeine or energy drinks, not as not opening up the creativity, but in the sense of taking something, ingesting it to alter your state to produce more.

Right. But to do it in with something that’s specifically unlocked or opens up creativity, I think is really interesting. And then the other side of it, that kind of the ceremonial side is. More of kind of the, the therapy, the healing, the pursuit of God, or of self-love discovery. All of that is

that fair to say?

I appreciate you bringing it around too, because that’s a good way of putting it. The microdosing kind of. Is effecting the S the, I guess the scientific level, right? How our brain works, neurochemistry, things like that to help us just like taking a multivitamin, like you said, what, what would I take to help increase the firing in my brain or.

To shut off some of those things that cause depression or causing anxiety or, you know, things like that. How do we shut that off so that it can be more productive over here? You know, whether it’s, um, attention deficit disorder, you know, how do I shut those parts of my brain off that aren’t serving me really well right now that I can be, I can get better over here.

And then as you do that, you begin to create those paths and create a deeper rut in those paths. As we, as my brain takes that route. Whereas when you take the. Greater doses of, um, of psychedelics your goal is essentially to have a mystical experience is to have a, a religious or mystical spiritual experience.

So you’ve got one and then you’ve got the other, for

sure. Yeah, that makes sense. So on the, on the mystical spiritual side of things, I know that it’s different for everyone and it depends on kind of what they’re. Looking to gain out of it or really what the psychedelic experience can invoke for them.

But kind of generally speaking, what, what are some of the potential spiritual implications we’ll call them of pursuing or, or becoming curious, or even trying the psychedelics as a means of accessing that versus, um, Shying away from that or kind of dismissing it. Is there anything that people potentially are either missing out on or can gain by being willing to lay down their perception and, or their religion to become open, to trying to access a deeper understanding of God, of themselves through psychedelics?


You know, I, I’m struggling to think of where to start with is that because, you know, you have to come to a place where you recognize you’re in an echo chamber and you are constantly feeding yourself a narrative, whether it came from church or your parents or society, and begin to question things, you know, Be open to things that might be offensive.

Like if you have been feeling offensive, listening to me, talk like pay attention to that. That’s a good thing, because that is something that you should begin to just question you don’t have to, you know, get on one side or the other, but just question it and begin to explore now, like, you

know, why am I offended?

That kind of a question. Yeah,

exactly. Why am I feeling offended by this? Right. Um, I mean, I can remember back when people would say they could see angels or they could see into the spirit realm. They like, man, that’s offensive to me, but I love that because it’s siting in my spirit gets excited and wants to know more.

So be excited about those things where you feel fear or you feel. Scared of being deceived or scared of, you know, um, just being guilty or, you know, things like that, that pay attention to that. And if you, if you believe what you believe Jesus says in the Bible, um, you would believe that there’s Liberty, there’s freedom and there’s, there’s no fear in love.

So whenever you feel those things, that’s not really him, right? Yeah. But he might be like, Hey, you’re not ready for this. Here’s the red light. But, um, You know, as for what people might expect, it’s going to be different for everybody. And here’s what I’ve discovered is that when it comes to, like, for me, I could walk around the church and I’ll be like, man, why am I not experiencing what they’re experiencing?

I want to experience you so much. God. Why not. And what I’ve come to discover or is that everybody’s different. Everybody’s got, I do encounter him differently. It’s not a cookie cutter relationship from one person to the next. So some people like myself need the aid of psychedelics to, to move me in that direction.

And so everybody’s excited. This is going to be different, but what you bring to that experience is what most likely will manifest. So when you come into it, Thinking you’re going to be, you know, demonized or you’re going to encounter demons or, um, you know, all those scary things that are projected from the religious views of those that you’ve listened to, which honestly are just them trying to explain something.

They don’t know. Like that’s one thing. So what I noticed is that I, I took on a lot of truth. From the church, uh, from pastors in the past that I said, man, this is truth, right? Like must be I’m giving them authority to speak over my life. And so I take it as truth. And then I discover, well, that’s maybe not exactly true.

And you do that. You have that happen to you enough times. You begin to realize that. You know, what is truth? I’m going to have to do my own investigation, my own search, because what they’re saying, I can’t really rely on. So what I found is that these people that are speaking from the pulpit, as amazing as they might be, a lot of times don’t really have answers.

They’re either regurgitating what they’ve heard from people that have spoken into their life in the past, or they’re reading scripture, and then interpreting it. In a way that’s like through their lens, they’re interpreting the scripture, which best fits their agenda or their understanding. But a lot of times we have this human innate desire to just have things explained.

We’re not okay with open ended questions. We’re not okay with not understanding scripture. Right. And so we fill that gap with something, whether it’s true or not. Okay. So I’ve got to begin to dissect and reprogram and be like, I’m okay with not knowing that right now. I’m okay with not knowing this. So when you go into an experience and people have told you, you know, stay away from that, that stuff’s wicked, it’s evil to opens you up to S you know, wicked spirits and wicked demons, and you’re going to be deceived and you’re going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It’s not the case. It’s simply not the case. And if you believe what the Bible says that you will kill, you’ll never fall out of his hands. Right. You’ve got to be more confident in his ability to keep you then. The devil or Satan’s ability to deceive you and you have to trust yourself, right? You’re gonna have people saying, Hey, don’t do that.

It’s wicked. It’s evil. But inside you’re going, I feel like this is what I’m supposed to do. I feel like this is good. I just, I need to give it a chance. That’s your spirit speaking to you? That’s your intuition saying? No, you need this. This is the answer it’s going to help heal you now. It’s not the arrival answer.

You’re not going to arrive. But it’s the beginning of, um, it’s the beginning of answers being revealed to you? It’s beginning of the hard work that says, Hey, we can get through all the, everything you’ve been trying to do for the last 20 years. Let’s start doing it in a much shorter amount of time, because I’m going to give you clues insight and understanding into who you are into what is really spiritual truth.

What is really, yeah. Those kinds of things. So

it sounds like we’re a. Tipping on the conversation of deconstruction, which is probably like a 12 part series in and of itself. So

it’s not just because of the

location of what you’re saying in the sense of beginning to think for yourself, beginning to explore for yourself beginning to trust yourself, you know, all of those things.

I think that there. Necessary as part of the conversation around psychedelics, but it’s, it is so much broader than just the one topic, right. Really strikes at the core of, of an individual and their own journey and their own process. Um, staying kind of in that vein is why do you think that specifically psychedelics, um, has such a stereotype or a stigma let’s just stick with within the church?

I think there’s, I think that in general, there is a lot of miss perception and misunderstanding just in general, as far as the topic itself, but at least in my own life, I just recently, as I’ve even brought it up and posed it as a question, like, is there something in the vein of psychedelic, maybe I have dismissed or I have not explored.

My friends who I know love me, who I know are good hearted. People who love God. There is, there’s almost a, either a repulsion or an aversion to even having the conversation, let alone, um, being willing to be open to exploring. And I’m not necessarily saying, taking psychedelics for them. But just exploring it in general, I have found that those that are within the church as well-intended, as they are, it seems like that topic.

It’s almost like porn. Oh, you struggle with porn and yeah. Guy. Okay. Semi taboo. But you know, we’ve talked about it. It’s we’ve got groups or we’ve got all this, like there’s things around that. What have you talked psychedelics? Oh, you mean you’re sacrificing a baby to Satan. Like I can’t

talk to you about that.

Those are extremes, but


do you think there’s such a reaction to it within the church?

Well, I think one thing that people can lean into is the fact that. Porn is legal. It’s easily accessible. It’s affordable. It’s um,


Yeah. Um, and it is something that much, as we’ve tried to understand why men struggle with it, nobody has an effing clue, right?

Like we know it has to do with relationship intimacy stuff and that’s scratching the surface, but could it. Potentially come down to trauma that led us to this answer, or, um, you know, could it be simply a, a means of medicating myself hatred? So whatever it might be binging on Netflix, porn, eating, shopping, um, masturbation, you know, any kind of sexual taboos, whatever it could be.

Those are all forms of medication. Right. But we’ve a lot, we’ve tolerated them. We said, well, you know, bingeing on Netflix, isn’t as bad as bingeing on porn. So, you know, let’s just try to change our behavior and become better. No, you never address the underlying cause. Right. So when this, this ancient medicine shows up and says, I can help heal.

Those deep rooted issues, then we’re like, w we’re like, Whoa, but wait, I thought, I thought God was my hero. He’s going to heal me. Jesus is going to heal me. He says it all in his Bible. So I’m sitting around waiting for a healing to heal my heart and to remove the trauma. And, um, and it, it goes back to that story of like the guide drowning in the ocean and he prays God, save me, save me.

And the ship comes by and says, Here I’ll throw, you know, a life raft or whatever, and he’s like, no, I’m waiting for God to heal me or save me. Yeah, I’ll go, I’ll go away. And then another ship, you know, and then he dies and goes to heaven. He’s like, why didn’t you save me? I sent three ships, X, wrong with you.

I love that visual of Peter saying, you know, wanting to curse at him and say, you’re a freaking idiot. But the thing is, is that. If, if all life was created, if everything that was created is in him and from him and you know, with him, then these medicinal things, right. He’s given us whether it’s cannabis, where, or mushrooms, or Iowasca like, these are our life rafts.

And we shouldn’t be afraid of incorporating these ancient substances to help us to heal us. Why are we sitting around playing the victim? And saying, Oh, if he loves me, he’ll heal me or I believe he loves me. So he’s going to heal me at some point. Now he’s given you, you’re a co-creator he’s given you, the meat means to heal yourself, you, but, but it’s not always going to look like, Oh, I’m going to lay hands on and you’re healed.

No, he’s given us life, incredible life throughout this whole earth, this whole planet to heal ourselves. But we’re, we’re so Western society focused that we don’t look at, you know, Native American or Amazonian tribes or African tribes who have been practicing this for millenniums and, you know, heal that’s there.

They don’t have Western medicine, but they’ve been able to heal themselves and in miraculous ways. And so again, when it comes to the church, it’s like, it’s just more programming. Like I, and if that is the one thing that offends you the most, while listening to this be offended by the fact that there’s so much beautiful truth.

In the Bible and we’ve listened to other people’s interpretation of it. And we’ve allowed ourselves to be programmed subconsciously to push away certain things and to receive certain things. And so I would challenge you to begin questioning things, go on a journey of questioning, I think, outside of your box, inside of your God box, even, and being like, Hey.

What did he already give us? I mean, you, even, if you read the old Testament, he’s given us so many things, you talk about frankincense and myrrh and, you know, Manoj, all these beautiful things that he’s given us, but yet you talk about, you know, Iowasca and mushrooms. The medicinal now. And we’re like, no, no, got Western medicine.

You know, I’ll just take a pill. Um, and Medicaid, it put the bandaid on it. Yeah. But never actually get to the issues. I mean, there’s so much science that shows like, Hey, I deal with this physical issue because I’ve got this emotional issue part of my body and it’s manifesting itself in a way physical way.

And when people deal with that emotional issue, They’re like, Whoa, where did my diabetes go? Or, Oh, where did you know? Where did whatever go? My depression go. Like, we’re a complex, amazing creatures. Yeah. He created us that way. He said we’re in his image, right? Yeah. We can do infinitely more than we think we can do, but we can’t be turned off by the beautiful creation that he’s given us.

That’s there to help us. So

anyway, it’s interesting. Just. As far as specific for programming that you’re bringing up. Um, I can’t help, but think about how quick people are to pop a pill prescription, or let’s just use depression. I take an antidepressants. I think that they do help for some people, et cetera.

I’m not swinging. The pendulum is not swinging the other direction saying none of that is good or valid, but it is interesting in the vein of being programmed, as far as what you accept. How a lot of us. And I remember this was probably about seven years ago when I chose to take antidepressants, I had to try, I think it was four of them and where it takes weeks to get on them.

And then you have to come off of them. And some of them were just like, they really affected me, affected my sex life. They affected my, I felt like I’d stand up too fast and get lightheaded coming off of one. There’s all these negative aspects of a pill that I’m willing to pop. But a psychedelic, you know, people are so afraid of this quote unquote, bad trip, but we take things all the time where if we read the potential negatives, then we would never put them into our body.

And yet at least in what I’ve been personally kind of navigating is what if I’m just boiling it down to pros and cons and stripping away my programming or my perception of something, what potentially could psychedelics. Helped me with and help me access versus what are the potential or the perceived.

And yeah, the more that I’m having these conversations and the more that I’m reading up on it, the more I’m looking into it, it it’s, it’s offending the party. Me, that’s saying, Oh, well, I just accepted that antidepressants. It’s the only way that I can start to feel better. And. You know, because I accepted that as just, well, yep.

You know, I’m a former Marine, who’s struggling with depression. My testosterone is low. And so I go to the VA and I get my pills until I’m better. And, and yet there’s something that God has created that is in this earth. That is a potential, it’s not for everyone. Right. It’s a potential Avenue into something that is actually what I’m looking for.

Um, I mean, we’ve talked about it. I’m more than willing to dive into that. The shadow of the store, that darker side to eat. What’s on the other side, uh, to really access a better part of my own heart and God’s heart, but it’s just interesting to me, you know, as you’re talking, how much of that even within myself and I think others is.

What not only what are, what are you offended by, but also what have you accepted as the norm versus, you know, it’s like the two sides of it. You may not, you may not be offended. Um, but you also may have just quote unquote, swallowed the pill and said, this is how it is. And I think taking that approach of curiosity and asking questions is so important, regardless of what your response is for this specific topic.

Yeah. And that’s, I mean, that’s, that’s kind of an, I remember I was going to say something earlier about talking to other people about it because when I first started diving into it, I had it people that were like, Whoa, what are you doing? What are you doing? And they want to. Talk to me in a way that’s like wanting me to repent, confess my sins of using psychedelics and become this good Christian again or whatever that might look like.

And I said, okay, let’s have the conversation about psychedelics. Are you prepared to have this conversation? And just by asking that question or like, Gosh, I don’t even know. I just think they’re bad. I’m like now that you’re not prepared to have an editor educational conversation about psychedelics, but if you were, if you took the time to educate yourself and just consider a new perspective, you would find that, you know, whether for you or not, you’re going to have a much different understanding and belief system surrounding psychedelics.

So, and again, like, Psychedelic is an interesting word because it became synonymous with the hippie movement. Right. But it didn’t start off that way. It was actually coined by, um, I think a journalist or a psychiatrist and a journalist. They quit together, something like that. But he had a quote that said to fathom hell or to go angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic.

That was the first term he came up with that term. That was the first time it was ever used. And it was back in like, Late fifties. And, but it’s had numerous names, but this one just happened to stick with the hippie movement. So another word I like to use is called entheogens, which is essentially a hallucinogenic plant medicine.

So entheogens, but ultimately what you’re, what you’re dealing with is a compound, a what they call the spirit molecule molecule called DMT. Um, that is what they is the act of substance. The active compound in the substances that invoke and experience. The interesting thing is, is that they find DMT in everything like everything.

Organic has some level of DMT. We ourselves have a large amounts of DMT in our lungs. That’s why you might hear people that do breathing exercises, can occasion kind of a psychedelic experience or hallucinogenic experience in some level, or they see the kaleidoscope visuals. Um, we also have the pineal gland in the brain that also secretes DMT.

And so, you know, these are, they’re there for a reason. Why do we have receptors in our brain that are. They’re shaped or they’re almost like a lock and key to receive these other, um, to receive these compounds, these elements from the DMT. Like if that wasn’t creative design that wasn’t creative design. I don’t know what is like, we were meant to work with this medicine.

Yeah. We were meant to work with it. It was there to help us, you know, and, and some people might argue, you know, some people have create, bring some great evidence to the table that maybe manna that is described in the old Testament is actually was some, actually some form of hallucinogenic compounds. Who knows?

I don’t know. Did you just

say the psychedelics are in the Bible?

What evidence of it? There’s a, there’s some evidence of it. I mean, people can wait to really get arguments about it,

but. God created everything in the Bible. So that would mean that the mushrooms and the psychedelics would have to be a part of that.

But heaven forbid they’re a part of the Bible, right? Is that

right? Right. You won’t, you won’t find them actually called, you know, psilocybin mushrooms back then. They didn’t have the scientific name back then, but sure. But it might’ve been, man. I mean, you, if you step outside of your Bible knowledge for a minute and actually do some historical research.

You will find that there’s so much evidence of civilizations incorporated mushrooms and other kinds of, uh, you know, and theologians in to their daily or religious practices as a Holy sacrament, you’ll see. And the images on the walls, things like that. There’s even some evidence that the scenes who, you know, we’re Christ lovers, they were very close in connection with Christ.

Um, Practice with that as well. So who knows? We’d have to transport ourselves back 2000 years ago to stop playing this game of telephone for the last 2000 years where we’ve got a message that probably doesn’t look like it did originally, you know, and if it did, who knows what they would say about?



If somebody has been listening to this and they’ve made it this far, they haven’t gotten pissed at me and I’m subscribed. Um, Where, where would you point someone to, um, regardless, let’s say this is the first time they’ve ever thought about psychedelics in a way that isn’t, uh, you know, lumped in the category of every other bad drug in life or they’re offended, but curious, or just kind of want to, it’s not even a matter of integrated into their life necessarily, but.

Gain a, a non, emotionally driven educational, unbiased approach to understanding them. Where would you point people?

Yeah, and that’s what I had to do initially too. Like I wasn’t going to walk in, I always investigate something thoroughly before I jump into it. Yeah. Okay. That’s just, that’s you want to know my Enneagram?

It’s a number five. It’s a type five. It’s the investment. I have to really study something before I jump on board with it. And so that’s what I did. And I just tried to absorb everything I could. And one thing would lead to another, you know, you can take the YouTube, you can thank you too for like saying, Oh, you like this, try watching this, you know, kind of thing.

But, um, you know, I wanna just take a quick step back and just. I want to validate what you said about taking the depression medication. I took it as well. Once I got married eight years ago, I struggled a lot. Um, I brought a lot of baggage to the relationship. Uh, I didn’t know what was wrong with me. Um, I struggled.

I eventually got, you know, it was too much for my wife who was actually my ex wife now, uh, for her to handle. And so I got on SSRI as I was on that for about a year and a half. It didn’t quite do the trick for me. I suffered the same way you have both, uh, you know, libido dropped. Um, I was numbed emotionally, and this is just not a place that’s not the way I wanted to live, but again, it took me four years after that maybe to finally find something that would put me on the right path to begin doing that really deep work instead of just talk therapy, but do that deep work that.

That heals me all the way down to the molecular level. Right. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, everything like that. Um, and so I started, I started doing the research. Uh, YouTube is great just for getting started, you know, looking at DMT, looking up Iowasca, uh, you know, silicide mushrooms. MTMA is, is something MDM and psilocybin is what is being used is, is almost being sanctioned or allowed to be used in certain therapy sessions.

Yeah. Around the world right now. Uh, and we’ll talk about the U S right now, because they’re. Pretty locked in with their rigidness, but they’re, they’ve opened up the borders to cannabis. So now we’re, you know, it’s kind of like that gateway it’s really paved the way for these entheogens are these, these, um, The substances to begin to be used in a therapeutic sense.

Now, if you’re always gonna have people that abuse stuff can’t get away from that, but that doesn’t have to be the standard or the norm. So MTMA psilocybin is treating people now and it is getting amazing results in alcohol addiction, PTSD, depression, people are being healed. From those and removing themselves from those behaviors in droves.

Yeah, because of the use of this, it’s the number one smoking cessation program. It 80% of the participants that use the, um, that go through the psilocybin treatment, uh, stop smoking altogether that you there’s no other cessation program that can even touch that figure. Even for myself, when I had my first Iowasca experience, I.

Kind of lost my desire to drink any alcohol. Whereas they, you know, I wasn’t a big drinker before, but at times if I’m feeling pretty shitty, I will medicate. I would medicate with alcohol, you know, have a few too many that night. I lost the desire to do that. Um, that was great. I was like, this is awesome.

So, um, I see all that just to get to the treatment side of it. So maps. Uh, M a P S of course, there’s a lot of organizations out there that have that maps acronym. Um, I’m trying to remember exactly what it is stands for, but it was essentially psychedelic, um, something association for psychedelic, um, something, but it would the whole, they’re the forefront on the forefront of.

Psychiatric treatment using entheogens or psychedelics. So usually psilocybin and they have been given Dave is doing a fantastic job of leading the way. And I know I spoke with you about it earlier about this, this mud coffee that we drink. Yeah. Proceeds, you know, That, uh, that they receive go to funding that organization where people are getting healed in droves.

And it’s incredible. So you can look up maps, go ahead. Say something.

I was just going to clarify one thing we don’t drink mud for coffee in the morning. Uh, there’s a brand called mud water, which, uh, is made up of mushrooms rooms and a lot of other great ingredients.

Psychedelic ones though. Not psychedelic mushroom.

No. Yeah. Um, that turned me on to that. I’ve really enjoyed it. It’s replaced coffee. It has one seventh of the caffeine. It’s just, it’s a great, especially if you feel like you still want to have something warm in the morning, which I normally do. Uh, it, it kind of scratches that itch and yet has so many more beneficial properties than just spiking your adrenals and then having a crash a few hours later.

So that’s what he was referring to in the sense of mud that we, when we drink in the morning.

Yeah. I don’t drink actual amount. I’m glad you, can you clarify that? And we should probably just clarify that. The mushrooms that are in it are lion’s mane ratio chaga. So

yeah, those are really good for you as well.


that probably

be a podcast in and of itself in the sense of just talking about mushrooms. Yeah. In general, you know, the types, what they do, all that kind of stuff. Um, I want to save that, obviously you’re going to be coming back on and other times and save that for a later time. But as far as. You specifically, um, how can people find you?

What are you up to what’s going on in your world there they’re like, man, I, I love the way that you’re speaking. It really hits something deep. How can they contact you if they want to be coached by you kind of what’s going on in your world.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I keep a, I keep backtracking a little bit and never actually answering your question fully.

And so I apologize for that. People are probably listening, going. You didn’t really answer the question. Can you about the previous question there? Well, the other thing I would say is a good place to start. If you just really want to research the history, um, the implications, um, from a semi unbiased view, just a journalist perspective, um, is, uh, Michael Paulen has an amazing book that he put out not too long ago.

And it’s called how to change your mind, what the new science of psychedelics tells us. So how to change your mind by Michael Paulin, P O L L E N is a fantastic read. Um, even if you’re like this isn’t ever for you, just having a really clear understanding so that you can have an intelligible conversation with others in the future.

Because the one thing I tell, you know, Christians is like, Hey, quit. You know, when you’ve got this part of the world, that’s like new agey and we go, Oh no, not the new age. You know, they, they believe in all this stuff, but they’re looking at us going, yeah, you guys are stuck in your box and you’re so judgmental and you’re super critical and you don’t ever listen.

And as I go. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. What we do is we blindly follow, you know, in faith, um, which is such a distorted thing we won’t get into the deconstruction park is that’ll be a part of it, but we blindly follow when we check our brains at the door. But even scripture tells us it is the, it is the mission.

This is a paraphrase it, the mission of Kings to seek these things out, right. It is our mission to investigate, to research, not to check our brain at the door and follow blindly, but to, to seek these things out. So anyway, um, to get a hold of me, And I’ll, I’ll answer kind of where I’m at right now. I, um, I launched a digital marketing agency about two years ago, so we’re still kind of even that two year launch phase, but it’s a, it’s gained traction and, um, you can find me on social media.

I, uh, just Seth Conner, or he can. Um, I, I’m trying to think here. Social brand syndicate is the name of the company. You can go there. We’re just finding on Facebook at Seth Connor. Um, mostly everything out there right now is geared towards that agency. So you’re not gonna find anything about me promoting this kind of conversation.

However, I do talk to a lot of people. I do. Um, you know, I I’ll coach folks from time to time if the, if the situation one, if I had the time, but two, if I feel called to it, if we have a conversation, have a strategy session, if you will. And it sounds like I’m called to mentor to them or be with them, then I will consider that.

But right now my focus is the, the marketing yeah. Agency. Um, yeah, I think that’s about. And you can just, you can email me too. It [email protected] and that’s with an ER C O N N E R.

Great. Yeah. That’s and we’ll, we’ll make sure we put all this in the show notes as well as links to the mud water and the book and everything else.

So, um, make sure you visit that. Well, like I said, is that you are, it’s almost a guarantee that you will be on for future episodes. I love having the conversation, really this all stemmed from us. Talking as friends. And then, you know, I basically came to a point where it was the, I forget if you brought it up or if I did where I was like, man, I just need to get you on the podcast.

Cause I think so many other people can benefit, um, both your passion as well as your, uh, education and understanding and experiences. So, um, whether that’s back for deconstruction or mushrooms or the variety of

Which I’m preparing for this weekend. I’ve got another ceremony this weekend.

So, you know, a lot of what you’re talking about is, is not just hearsay. It’s actually an implement you’ve implemented and integrated into your life. So. Thanks for taking the time to share with my audience. And I know that I’ve gotten a lot out of just listening to you and I know that other people have

as well. .

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Episode 13